Monday, October 14, 2013

Xero vs QuickBooks Online: Comparison, Round Two

 Margaret Carey for Box Free IT writes:  Back in February, I compared Xero with QuickBooks Online (SEE BELOW)  but change occurs rapidly in the cloud. In the past eight months both have brought out new functions, Xero has consolidated as the vendor with the fastest growing number of customers in Australia and Intuit, the global incumbent, has signalled how seriously it views the challenge by releasing a new user interface.
Last week I reviewed the new QBO user interface(code named Harmony) (SEE BELOW) which dramatically improved the look and feel and catapulted it from the dreary and difficult to the interesting and useable.
I still prefer the Xero user interface – Ok it doesn’t have the plethora of colours we see with QBO and I can access functions in QBO more quickly and easily. But I like the way Xero effectively uses the real estate on the screen to present maximum information without being cluttered.
The user interface is important but is generally not the make or break factor when deciding what accounting software to use. Following is an update on key differences between the two products followed by an outline of non-essential features that could add weight to the decision-making process.

Major Features: What’s in and what’s not?

Right now QBO does not have an internal payroll solution and there is no indication that this gap will be plugged in the immediate future. There are third-party products that integrate into QBO which is helpful, but if payroll is a requirement, generally the choice would be for the fully integrated option.
Xero also has fixed asset module which can manage basic registers, depreciation and sale/disposal of assets. There has been a lot of simplification of depreciation rules from the Australian Taxation Office in recent years so for the many small businesses that just need some  basic asset tracking/management this is a viable alternative.
However Xero has an extensive list of missing major items: purchase orders, sales orders and inventory. Xero has frequently acknowledged that these are holes in its core accounting platform and has promised to fill them in. But only fairly recently has Xero made a firm commitment and given evidence that the modules are on the drawing board rather than the wish list.
There are some minor differences too.
My Xero Likes:
  • GST/BAS. I not only have the full calculations worksheet and the BAS form but also a GST Reconciliation report – great for identifying prior period adjustments etc.
  • The customisable Account Watchlist on the dashboard. I use this to show PAYG Withheld, Superannuation Liability and Accounts Payable to enable clients to get a complete picture of their expected cash position.
  • Overview of Bank Accounts on the dashboard. Clients can clearly see the status of reconciliations as well as balances.
  • And I still love those Bank Rules which are so flexible and comprehensive.
  • I can open additional functions or reports in a new tab (this is only available in the accountant version of QBO) which is incredibly useful for multi-tasking.
  • Processing superannuation payments using Auto Super. How much time do small businesses spend on administering superannuation? And they still don’t get it right.
  • The employee portal for lodging leave requests, printing payslips. Self service streamlines the administration processes.
  • Direct lodgement of TFNs with ATO. Again this streamlines administrative tasks.
  • So many third-party products that integrate to Xero via Open APIs.

My QuickBooks Online Likes:
  • Report customisation. The user can easily customise reports specific to their business needs.
  • Billable expenses. Very helpful where you need to on-bill expenses.
  • Sub accounts in the Chart of Accounts. Makes longer P&L reports so much easier to read.
  • Custom fields for customers and suppliers. Great for recording business data relating to customers and/or suppliers.
  • Recurring or repeating general journals. Loved by accountants.

My Xero Dislikes:
  • Super clunky and error prone posting of payroll into the financial accounts.

My QBO Dislikes:
  • Can’t put default tax codes on chart of accounts. This functionality can save so many data entry errors.
  • Sub category required on all accounts in the Chart of Accounts. It is confusing to users, not used anywhere but is so deeply embedded in legacy code that it can’t be removed.

Having said all that, the minor points are unlikely to substantially affect the decision making process but depending on requirements  the absence or otherwise of some of the major functions could impact the decision. Other factors that could impact the decision are:
  • Price. Xero has demonstrated through its more expensive pricing plans that customers are not necessarily particularly price conscious.
  • Referrals/Recommendations. Here Xero currently has the edge having marketed extensively to accountants over the last couple of years and these accountants are busy on-selling to their clients.
  • Marketing. Having consolidated its base, Xero has launched a national marketing campaign, advertising on billboards in your local shopping centres and at bus stops to increase brand awareness.
So while there are some differentiating features, Xero is adding more customers, more quickly in Australia right now, predominantly because of the relationships it has nurtured with accountants and possibly from its new advertising campaign.
Intuit is going to have to do something innovative to level the playing field if it is to win the hearts and wallets of Australian small businesses. During my recent visit to the Intuit Accountants Summit in the US, I asked what tactics the company was going to use to expand its position in Australia and take on Xero but didn’t receive any clear indications.
What is certain is that Intuit is in Australia for the long haul and will use its corporate muscle to carve out a slice of the pie.
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Margaret Cary writes:
I posted a couple of blogs last year about a new entrant in the Australian cloud accounting space – QuickBooks Online (QBO) from Intuit, the original US developers of QuickBooks. What makes the advent of this product so interesting is the determination of Intuit to penetrate the Australian marketplace and seems to have an almost bottomless pot of money to do so. Large amounts have been poured into both marketing and product development. Last week, senior management was back in Australia for the third time in about six months conducting a series of workshops in most major cities, showcasing the product and specifically their recent developments, to industry professionals.
I haven’t really worked out why Intuit is focusing so heavily on the Australian marketplace. I wouldn’t have thought it was large enough to warrant an investment of the size they are allocating. Their figures are that there are more than 2 million small businesses in Australia, which represents 50% of the workforce and 1/3rd of GDP and that this represents a business opportunity for them.
I remain unconvinced because I believe QBO is most suited to the micro end of the small business market and their target market is much smaller. Additionally many small businesses select their software based on their accountant’s recommendations who in turn prefer their clients use software that they are both familiar with and that will integrate with their practice management software. Other small businesses base their decision on recommendations from friends, colleagues or family, or software they have previously used. Right now on those criteria, QBO would not rate highly on many radar screens. However Intuit is using all weapons in its arsenal to increase brand and product awareness, most Google searches bring QBO up way ahead of Reckon’s QuickBooks, Intuit is out there on social media and its free certification programme all assist in this.
Based on the current functionality of QBO, I would see that it would be positioned mainly as a competitor to Xero customers and prospects. So what does it have going for it?
When Intuit first came to Australia, they received feedback that both Payroll and Inventory solutions in the product were necessary. In a relatively short space of time they have leapfrogged over Xero and have basic Inventory functionality embedded. Payroll has been added but it is at the stage Xero was this time last year – a separate web-based product that does pass journal entries directly into QBO – nice but not as good as Xero as there are separate products and additional licensing costs (unless you only have 1 employee when it is free).
Other pluses for QBO:
  • You can do Quotes/Estimates and Sales Orders. You can raise multiple invoices from one quote. A fairly common requirement that is not yet in Xero.
  • The report customisation feature that is a strong feature of QuickBooks is available in QBO. I have always found Xero to be very light on in reporting capabilities.
  • QBO has both Locations and Classes for additional analysis. Locations are similar to Xero’s Tracking Categories and Classes are used for Job Costing – there is no similar functionality in Xero. However Xero does allow you to assign up to 5 Tracking Categories per transaction – so this could be an equal.
  • QBO does have more comprehensive budgeting functionality, but budgeting is a process so few micro businesses do, so I don’t rate this too highly.
  • QBO has separate tabs for Customers, Suppliers, Banking etc so options within each centre are visible from the Home page and there is one less click to get to an option. Xero lumps everything under Accounts so options are less visible immediately.
But: (i.e. the things I don’t like or where Xero has a heads up)
  • The layout of the Customer/Sales page in QBO is different from that of the Suppliers/Purchases page – consistency is really important especially during the learning phase.
  •  Each account in the chart of accounts as well as being assigned to a main class such as Income, Expense, Current Asset is assigned to a sub class which has no relevance anywhere – an extra and confusing step for the micro business owner.
  • Only the Accountant’s version has the ability to open a menu option in a new tab and thus have a report and an entry form open at the same time. This is a major let down.
  • Neither product is particularly strong in managing GST and producing the BAS and both are looking at enhancements so I will reserve judgement here.
However the coup d’état for Xero is its bank rules that so comprehensively, seamlessly and effectively remove a lot of the hack work of data entry for the micro business owner (and reduces errors). For me that has been the clincher for many a recommendation in the micro business space. QBO really doesn’t compare here.
Overall from a functionality perspective, the two compare reasonably evenly. Although functionality is the most important factor in software selection, other factors should be considered including:
  • Support – I haven’t tried contacting Intuit support so cannot compare but I have always been favourably impressed with Xero.
  • Price – QBO is way cheaper than Xero – virtually 50% especially with the price decrease that came into effect this week. As this fee is paid monthly, over a period of time, this does add up, however I very rarely make a software recommendation based solely on price. If the software doesn’t fit the business needs, the cost in extra time and extra processes can more than wipe out licensing costs.
  • Community acceptance – there is no need t be a guinea pig, there are tried and tested solutions that work – right at the moment this remains a deal breaker for me. There are too few businesses using QBO in Australia, I would have to have a compelling reason to select the product over Xero which does have a huge installed base which confirms it is a good product and means that there are many accountants, bookkeepers and consultants available to support users.
Right now, I am still hesitant to recommend QBO to a client even in the situation where the client needs functionality such as sales orders that are not in Xero and otherwise fits the QBO model. Over time as the newness gets ironed out, I expect this will change. Meanwhile it’s a case of watching to see how well Intuit swims in the Australian market place.

Margaret Carey For Box IT writes: Review: The ‘New Look’ QuickBooks Online

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At the recent Intuit VIP Accounting Summit in the US I was introduced to the new user interface for the QuickBooks Online cloud accounting software and was instantly impressed. For so long one of my main reasons for not recommending QuickBooks Online was the user interface – it was cumbersome, inconsistent, disorganised and dated. Now that appears to be a thing of the past.
Gone is the forever blue, gone is the imposing array of tabs across the top with intensive drop down menus, the inconsistencies between the different centres and the total lack of uniformity between data entry screens.
The new home page for QuickBooks Online
The new home page for QuickBooks Online
Code named Harmony, this release is available only to new users; existing users will have to wait a couple of months before they can  enjoy this revitalised and re-energised user interface. And note – if you log in as a new user you must use Google Chrome or Firefox as your browser, if you use Internet Explorer, you will get the old interface.
As soon as  I returned to Australia, I set up a new QuickBooks Online account, entered some details about my business and learned that 500,081 businesses worldwide use QuickBooks Online, 2793 were in the accounting and bookkeeping businesses, but there were no businesses like mine nearby!
After that, my first view of the new QuickBooks Online was the Home page with its neatly laid out, multi coloured dashboard. Now it doesn’t have the customisable dashboard which is a great feature of the soon to be released Reckon One accounting software but it does clearly show the major health indicators of the business with links into the relevant data.
QuickBooks Online is much more of an industrial strength product than Xero for example. Its breadth of functionality is much greater which means that it can be suitable for a wider range of business models. However the conundrum then is, with so many functions, how can a novice user easily navigate to the right place without a bewildering array of options?
In Harmony, Intuit have come up with a really neat solution, firstly there is a simple navigation bar on the left uncluttered by a host of options that allows you to directly access the major areas of the software and then at the top is the killer feature – a neat little plus sign that clearly lists all the transactions available to create (although interestingly, paying supplier bills wasn’t there). Just click on one of these and there you are.
Simplified menus for faster navigation.
QuickBooks Online uses simplified menus for faster navigation.
These two navigation features are available throughout the software (apart from when you are entering a transaction) so it is usually just one or two clicks to get to where ever you need to go.
Another welcome feature in Harmony is that all the transaction entry screens from a supplier invoice to a customer payment are consistently and clearly laid out with a  header, body and footer. A user no longer has to learn how to enter each type of transaction individually – a welcome relief.
An interesting user feature in this release  is the panel of  information  that will deftly slide in from the right hand side of the screen to provide additional information relevant to the current  task. For example, when paying a particular supplier, the panel will display other open bills that could be paid and you can just select Add to bring them in.
This new release concentrates mostly on the user interface not a new functionality but we do have some re-energised bank feeds. Disappointingly you can only assign Australian GST tax codes to payments out of the bank account. For customer receipts – it is necessary to have already entered the customer invoice and match the bank receipt to the invoice. But for items such as interest income and other miscellaneous deposits – the ability to allocate a tax code to the transaction is not available. I also didn’t seem to be able to record multiple dissections on the one bank payment line.
QuickBooks Online's customer list.
QuickBooks Online’s customer list.
In Harmony the whole user interface is packed with a host of neat features that can make interacting with your accounts a real pleasure – even those people who hate accounts. I have only touched on some of the major features, there is much more to explore.
A thumbs up to the designers at Intuit, it ticks all the boxes in that it is visually appealing, looks modern and uncluttered, is easy to navigate, has lots of pop ups with supplementary information and there is uniformity across all screens.
I am pleased that Intuit has understood the importance of the user interface – it doesn’t impact the underlying functions, but if the software is difficult to use, it is difficult to sell. Although the code name Harmony will disappear, right now it aptly describes the release.
COMMENTS
Posted on 8:28 AM | Categories:

Xero Intuit War Exploding

The thought provoking Mike Block for QuickBooks Xero Blog writes: The Xero Intuit accounting war is now exploding.
The stock market has been predicting that Xero will win big for five years. Xero stock rose 15 times faster (up 2400%) than Intuit stock. However, the Xero Intuit war will now explode.
Xero just raised $150 million, specifically to fund U.S. expansion. It came from some of the smartest and largest technology investors ($123 million from the U.S.), led by venture capital stars Peter Theil (Valar Ventures) and Matrix Capital Management. With all due respect to Rod Drury and the other outstanding speakers at the recent Xero conference, the highlight of my trip was a long conversation I had with a Matrix rep.
Xero rose 9.75% on the news. Intuit is down in early trading. Xero doubled employees and customers last year, but raised the extra money to increase its hyper-expansion and compete for 23 million possible U.S. customers. It has a new 28,000 square foot San Francisco U.S. headquarters (a few miles from Intuit headquarters) and may soon have more local U.S. offices than Intuit. It also has been doubling add-ons yearly, while QuickBooks lost 70% of add-on links in 21 months.
The Intuit Xero war also may reflect recent research: Intuit is effectively liquidating, having used $4.9 billion on stock buybacks (more than cumulative income). Instead of spending on expansion, Intuit will use $2.4 billion more on buybacks (more than 2012 adjusted stockholder equity or three years of recent earnings). Knowing this, insiders sold more than $4 billion of stock, while only buying and disposing of option stock.
Xero will win this war due to its professional accountant approach alone. Each new accountant brings it many new users quickly. This requires big money for programming, to create a better product, but cuts marketing costs. Xero has long outspent Intuit on programmers, relative to size. It now seems to be far outspending it on an absolute basis, though Intuit revenue is still many times larger. The different professional accountant approach made the head of the QuickBooks ProAdvisor program go to Xero. It also relates to having Intuit recently cut a third of its U.S.-based ProAdvisor support staff, so we spend a long time on hold. Other Intuit support does not speak English natively and read from help databases, without knowing related programs.
Intuit often embarrasses and angers professional accountants with ads saying users do not need us to do bookkeeping or taxes, while recruiting us to clean up many avoidable messes and lost deductions. It also runs the world’s biggest diploma mill, letting anyone buy so-called QuickBooks ProAdvisor titles. About 80% of ProAdvisors never pass Certified ProAdvisor tests, though surveys showed that complaints relate to untested advisors and average rates waste $1 billion a years for QuickBooks users. Intuit also undercuts us with lower retail prices than it gives us.
This war also relates to Inuit now giving accountants 50% off on QuickBooks Online clients, vs a prior 10%. Xero may increase the 15% it gives us, though Intuit temporarily gave away a QuickBooks version when fighting Microsoft.
Xero also will win because Intuit tends to limit advanced releases to times of serious competition. I was long a QuickBooks insider, with many Intuit-articles. Fellow insiders badly wanted Mint-like downloads for QuickBooks 8 years ago. Top Intuit executives thought it was a great idea, but did nothing until they had to buy Mint for $170 million. Then they killed QuickBooks Online without promised Mint imports (complicated for Intuit, not for a small competitor). Insiders also begged Intuit CEO Brad Smith and top assistants to make QuickBooks Online worth using originally. Brad later apologized to us for not following our advice.
Insiders also wanted an Intuit workflow product, linked to QuickBooks and Intuit tax products. Intuit disregarded what we needed and delayed, until it failed twice with expensive products. Xero bought and vastly improved a competing product, making it free to professional accountants. An Intuit employee admitted that this made Intuit buy a free workflow product, from a company that only had a website for 6 months and 13 days before Intuit bought them. However, Intuit now charges $99 a month for a slightly repackaged version. Is that rape or a sucker punch?
Xero has big web-only cost, reliability, simplicity, partnership and development speed advantages. It uses essentially the same code in more than 100 countries. Intuit has separate products in a few countries. That seems to be why Intuit just sent a top person to Australia, long after losing a local marketing and programming arm. The new Xero $150 million means that he failed in any unlikely Intuit buyout effort, but I otherwise wish him luck. He once called from Japan, where he was ending Intuit operations. Though very sick, he quickly arranged a 50-minute conference call with his northern and southern California security heads (I am in Florida). He did this so we could all talk about alleged security problems for my blog post.
If Intuit still had such relationships, we might not have one Intuit person in Australia, vs $150 million in extra Xero U.S. investment. However, one big Brad mistake was giving me a personal Intuit contact person, while limiting access to top Intuit personnel. He did this during a long call, during a championship football game. This was on the day he found out he would be the next Intuit CEO, two years after I told him that he would.
All this relates to Xero having reached a tipping point, which precedes very rapid adoption. The recent Xero San Francisco conference showed that many top QuickBooks stars are switching to Xero or have already done so. We were there despite the sudden staging of four Intuit conferences in the same area, at the same time. Some of the most prominent among us also were there despite repeated Intuit calls, asking us not to attend. Yes, this goes beyond war. It speaks of desperation. We live in interesting times, but the best is yet to come, regardless of who wins.
Personally, I would still rather spend an hour at the dentist than an hour using QuickBooks Online, but please contact us with any accounting and tax problem, with any of these products. 
Posted on 8:28 AM | Categories:

Xero to Intuit: I have $150M in funding, now gimme all your customers

Meghan Kelly for VentureBeat writes: Believe it or not, there is some drah-mah in the cloud accounting industry. Oh yeah, we’re talking dollars and data centers, here, people.  Intuit competitor Xero has set its crosshairs on Quickbooks, charging toward its U.S. business with a new round of $150 million.

Xero makes cloud accounting software and its main competitor is the Intuit-made Quickbooks. The company, which is based in New Zealand, has been gunning for Intuit’s business, positioning itself as the younger, less legacy-software-like accounting product. The company also boasts mobile device support, updated design, and what it thinks is better customer support.

In it’s announcement, Xero even calls out Intuit for “posting disappointing earnings,” saying the huge financial software company will “struggle to keep up with a cloud computing and mobile-driven world.”

Yikes.

The company thus far has had considerable growth in the U.S., bringing up its overall customer base 141 percent year over year. It first entered the U.S. market in 2011 and currently has over 210,000 customers worldwide. At VentureBeat’s CloudBeat conference this past September, Xero chief executive Jamie Sutherland announced that he and his team are coming up with a separate feature that will even help Quickbooks customers transfer over to Xero’s service in a few hours.

And it seems U.S. investors have a lot of that same faith in the company. Out of its $150 million round, $123 million were supplied by U.S. investors. Investors included Matrix Capital Management, Peter Thiel-backed Valar Ventures, and a suite of unnamed U.S. and New Zealand investors.

Xero was founded in 2006 and is listed on both the New Zealand Stock Exchange as well as the Australian Securities Exchange. Appropriately, it has offices in both New Zealand and Australia, but also has office space in the U.K., and the U.S.
Posted on 8:25 AM | Categories:

Xero Zeros In On Another $150M To Do Battle With Intuit In The World Of Online SMB Accounting Software

Ingrid Lunden for TechCrunch writes: Nearly a year after Peter Thiel, Matrix Partners and others put an extra $49 million into Xero, the online accounting software company is adding yet more capital to its coffers. Today the New Zealand-based startup announced that it has raised $150 million (NZ$180m), led again by Peter Thiel-backed Valar Ventures and Matrix Partners. Xero says it will use the funds to continue building out its business targeting small and medium businesses, and their accountants, with its cloud-based software globally. This brings the total amount raised by the company to over $230 million.
Prior to today’s funding announcement, the company was valued at over $2.07 billion. But it is not yet profitable, reporting a net loss of US$12 million (NZ$14.443m) for the last fiscal year.
Xero’s unique selling point is its slick and simple user interface, or “beautiful cloud accounting making business enjoyable,” as Xero describes it. Into this the company adds functionality that SMBs are increasingly coming to demand: integration with payment services like PayPal, for example; and the ability to add CRM apps, general online invoices and and manage it all from a smartphone — all sold under an SaaS pricing model.
“Xero has had seven years to build the best global accounting platform,” said Rod Drury, Xero’s CEO, in a statement. “That investment puts us in a strong position as the cloud market accelerates. The calibre of our investors and our strong cash position sends a clear signal of our aspirations to serve millions of small businesses around the world.”
Indeed, Xero hopes to use this funding injection to overtake dominant players in the SMB market like Intuit’s QuickBooks, and it is driving especially aggressively into countries like the U.S. to do it. (That’s because the U.S. represents “29 million potential customers.”) Tellingly, some $123 million of the $150 million announced today comes from investors in the U.S. the company notes.
“Xero is emerging as the definitive software platform for small business worldwide. Capturing the power and affordability of cloud-based computing, Xero has democratized accounting, payroll, and other business software that was once the privilege of only the largest companies,” noted David E. Goel, Managing Member of Matrix Capital Management, in a statement. “Having empowered hundreds of thousands of small and medium-sized businesses in New Zealand, Australia, and the United Kingdom, Xero is poised to do the same for its 29 million potential customers in the United States. We are adding to our investment to help facilitate and accelerate this goal.”
Xero’s longer-term aim, as laid out in its last annual report from May, is to reach 1 million paying customers. As of September 30, it had 211,300, with annualised committed monthly revenues are NZ$70.6 million (US$58.7 million). This new funding, along with Xero’s existing US$45.8m in cash, in will go some way to potentially driving up that number.
The news comes after Xero — publicly traded in New Zealand and Australia — halted trading in its shares on Friday pending a funding announcement.
Xero has been pushing especially hard into new markets outside of its traditional base of New Zealand, Australia and the UK. In the year that ended September 30, 2013, the company says its user base grew by 89%, but the growth outside of NZ, Australia and the UK was 141%, with revenues up 84% in the previous six months. Right now, New Zealand remains its biggest base of users, with 85,500.
As for why public Xero is raising funding from VCs, it’s an interesting predicament that seems unique to markets like New Zealand. Ben Kepes, an investor, tech commentator and “long-time Xero-watcher” tells me that Xero had no choice but to list at launch in 2007 — “a function of limited capital in New Zealand and the fact that they had no credibility with their target market.” That also drove the company to dual-list in Australia as well; and CEO Drury “has already flagged a likely U.S. cross listing.” Nevertheless, “given the fact their original IPO was relatively modest and they’re not yet profitable, further equity funding is necessary,” he notes.
Other investors in Xero include Craig Winkler and Sam Morgan.
Posted on 8:24 AM | Categories:

How Far Back Can IRS Claim Tax Evasion Or Fraud? Timing Is Everything

Robert W. Wood for Forbes writes: Anyone who is hiding income or assets from the taxman should consider how long they need to be looking over their shoulder. Even if you aren’t actively hiding anything and did your best with your taxes, you might be worried. After all, taxes are horribly complex. The line between creative or aggressive tax planning and tax evasion is sometimes less clear than you might think.
Even innocent activities can sometimes be interpreted as suspect. It can help your peace of mind to know how long you can be asked to prove income, expenses, bank deposits and more. For all of these reasons, it’s good to know about the normal IRS statute of limitations and how a tax evasion or fraud claim from the IRS can turbo-charge a case.
Start with the basic rule that the IRS usually has three years after you file to audit you. If you omit more than 25% of your income, the IRS gets double that time, six years. But statutes are often extended, sometimes voluntarily.
Frequently, the IRS says it needs more time to audit and asks you to sign a form extending the statute, usually for a year. Most tax advisers generally advise clients to agree. However, get some professional advice about your own situation. You may be able to limit the time or scope of the extension.
But what if you file a false return under-reporting income or willfully fail to file? The rules for how long you must worry–and the stakes–go up materially, including potential criminal charges and prison. Section 6531(2) of the tax code says the statute is six years commencing once the return is filed, or from the time you willfully failed to file a return.
In a case of alleged criminal tax evasion, that means the statute hasn’t run if the taxpayer is indicted within six years after “willfully attempting in any manner to evade or defeat any tax or the payment thereof.” In some cases, though, the statute is “tolled”–so stops running. For example, the statute stops running if the target is outside the U.S. or is a fugitive.
What’s more, even when the alleged tax crime is committed can be hard to pinpoint. Does filing a false return start the six year clock? What about failing to file by the due date? How about covering it up later, hiding money, or lying about it?
All are potential problems that might occur many years after the tax return was filed or should have been filed. That means you may have to worry for many years beyond six. The issue is especially important if any later act keeps the statute open. Some courts have concluded that the six year statute doesn’t even start to run until the last act of tax evasion.
For example, in United States v. Irby here, the court held the six year statute began to run on the last act of evasion. Mr. Irby used nominee trusts to conceal his assets many years after he failed to file. He may have thought he only had to worry for six years, but his use of nominee accounts delayed when his six years commenced. That meant he could still be indicted, prosecuted and convicted.
Finally, you often hear people say that the statute of limitations never runs on fraud. For civil tax fraud, that’s true. The IRS can come after you any time. But it’s still rare for the IRS to go back too far. Problems of proof are too great, and the IRS bears a high burden of proof in fraud cases, even civil fraud.
Timing may not be everything, but it’s terribly important in tax cases. No one wants to be in the position of lying low and worrying about being caught. Fortunately, sometimes these issues can be resolved in less painful and less expensive ways than you might think. Within the protection of attorney client privilege, it can pay dividends to get some professional advice.
Posted on 8:24 AM | Categories:

Tax efficient setup for partnership

AskTaxGuru writes: My friend has 50% share in 2 person New York s-corp. I want to lend money to my friend with following conditions using some legal vehicle (promissory note/contract etc):

1. Collateral: His interest in s-corp.
2. Entitle to 30% of his annual profit share.
3. Entitle to 30% of his share if the business is sold.
4. There should not be any taxes on initial investment.
5. Be as tax efficient as possible for both of us. There should be no double taxation, I will pay taxes on the profit I receive but my friend should be able to deduct whatever he pays me on his taxes.


I cannot become part of s-corp or directly lend money to s-corp as other 50% partner in s-corp does not want to deal with it.


RESPONSE
I guess making your loan to S corp shareholder can be good tax planning. Making a loan to S corp shareholder can also lead to disaster.If the loan is recharacterized as a distribution and the shareholder has insufficient tax basis in his stock, taxable gain results for him. Even worse, if there is more than one shareholder, a loan to one shareholder that is recharacterized into a distribution could result in termination of the S election. The IRS could determine that the disproportionate distributions indicate a second class of stock;to avoid disaster, proving that a disbursement to a shareholder was intended to be a loan is the key. Proving “intent” depends on all the facts and circumstances.

There are the main factors that the courts have deemed indicative of a bona fide loan: Whether the shareholder repaid the loan; Whether the shareholder paid interest on the loan; How the disbursement to the shareholder was reflected in the books of the corporation;as you said, Whether there was a promissory note with stated interest, a repayment schedule, and a maturity date; Whether or not security was given for the payments; Whether the corporation tried to enforce repayment; Whether the shareholder was financially able to repay

According to the case law, by far the most important indicia of a bona fide loan between the lendse(or sh/owner of S corp) and corporation is repayment. Several times courts have ruled that a loan existed even if there was no written note and the bookkeeping was sloppy, but the disbursements were later repaid.What if the S corp client has had loans outstanding for years and the loans keep growing? In that instance, you need to do two things: have a conversation with the shareholder about the risk of recharacterization, and insure the documentation of the loan is proper. If the S corp is growing and profitable, strongly suggest to the debtor/shareholder that earnings be used to make distributions so that the shareholder can repay the loan. If there is more than one shareholder, remember that distributions must be proportionate to ownership. 

As the debtor/shareholder borrow from you, a third party, in order to repay the loans to the S corp. This suggestion likely won’t be greeted with enthusiasm either. But if the tax risk of recharacterization is significant and other opportunities for repayment are limited, then this may be the best option. if the S corp’s business has appreciated in value, but the cash flow and earnings are not sufficient to fund the shareholder’s cash requirements. The debtor/shareholder may need to consider selling some or all of his stock to raise cash to pay off the loan. Then he neds to be careful ; if the sale is not to an eligible shareholder, the S election will terminate. 

Also, there are numerous non-tax reasons to be leery of outsiders becoming shareholders of a closely held corporation.ALSO Loan(s) to S corp shareholders that build up for years with no repayment pose a significant tax risk. You need to inform your borrower of this risk, and may need to work with him to formulate a plan for repayment. In the interim, you may need to insure the loan is adequately documented. I guess you can ontact a CPA/an IRS EA in your local area for more info in detail on your issue.



Posted on 8:22 AM | Categories:

Tax efficient placement of VGPMX (Vanguard Precious Metals and Mining Inv)

Over at Bogleheads we read:

Tax efficient placement of VGPMX


Tax efficient placement of VGPMX

Postby slbnoob » Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:03 pm
I have some small play money with which I want to speculate on VGPMX (Vanguard Precious Metals and Mining Inv) for a relatively short period (get out after some gains, hopefully). It is down nearly 40% YTD. I only have VTSMX, VGTSX and VNQ in my IRA and there is no more space. So, I have the following 2 options which allow me to buy a small position in VGPMX:

1. Obviously, buy it in taxable.

2. Exchange $X of VGTSX (Tot. Intl.) in my IRA for $X of VGPMX. Maintain my position in VGTSX by buying $X of it in my taxable. My rationale for doing this is that VGPMX seems less tax efficient and is better placed in IRA. VGTSX, on the other hand is tax efficient and I can claim foreign tax credit in my taxable. When I am done playing, I can simply sell VGTSX in taxable and buy it back in my IRA (after selling my position in VGPMX).

Does option 2 sound reasonable from a tax efficiency point of view? Please share your perspectives. Thanks.
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Re: Tax efficient placement of VGPMX

Postby livesoft » Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:18 pm
You cannot tax-loss harvest VGPMX if held in a tax-advantage account [easily].
It's all about market timing, uh, I mean rebalancing, uh, I mean opportunistic rebalancing, uh, I mean short-term opportunistic rebalancing due to a short-term change in one's asset allocation.
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Re: Tax efficient placement of VGPMX

Postby slbnoob » Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:37 pm
livesoft wrote:You cannot tax-loss harvest VGPMX if held in a tax-advantage account [easily].

Good point. Though I wonder if I could TLH it at all. What would be a similar fund?

However, as of now, I hope to not make a loss :). So assuming even a nominal gain, is plan 2 in my OP workable? Or should I simply go with plan 1?
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Re: Tax efficient placement of VGPMX

Postby slbnoob » Sat Oct 12, 2013 1:39 pm
**bump for advice**
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Re: Tax efficient placement of VGPMX

Postby ruralavalon » Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:57 pm
Vanguard Precious Metals and Mining Fund (VGPMX) is extremely volatile, set a target allocation with upper and lower rebalancing limits for selling and buying, and be discplined about rebalancing when hitting those limits. So hold it in tax protected so you can rebalance without generating tax liability.

Be prepared for it to stay down for a stretch, it doesn't always fluctuate the way you want when you want :shock: .

I wouldn't buy it expecting a gain anytime soon just because its recently dropped 40%.
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Re: Tax efficient placement of VGPMX

Postby livesoft » Sat Oct 12, 2013 3:11 pm
In taxable, who cares what a "similar fund" would be for TLH purposes? You would just sell it to book the loss and go on with your life.

If you buy this fund in tax-advantage and it drops, you will be really bummed out because there is really no way to have others share your loss like there would be in a taxable account.

Of course, if you were not speculating, then you would have a percentage of your portfolio already figured out for this asset class. Then if it was in tax-advantaged and it droppped in value, you would be buying more to get back to your desired AA. Can you psychologically do that? Can you give me an example where you have done something like that before? For example, did you buy shares in an emerging markets index fund at the end of June when those EM threads were all the rage on this forum? If not, why not?
It's all about market timing, uh, I mean rebalancing, uh, I mean opportunistic rebalancing, uh, I mean short-term opportunistic rebalancing due to a short-term change in one's asset allocation.
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Re: Tax efficient placement of VGPMX

Postby stratton » Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:54 pm
It's not tax efficient.

VGPMX has made distributions at the end of the year as high as 20% of NAV. Check 2008 or 2009.

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Re: Tax efficient placement of VGPMX

Postby slbnoob » Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:39 pm
livesoft wrote:In taxable, who cares what a "similar fund" would be for TLH purposes? You would just sell it to book the loss and go on with your life.

If you buy this fund in tax-advantage and it drops, you will be really bummed out because there is really no way to have others share your loss like there would be in a taxable account.

Of course, if you were not speculating, then you would have a percentage of your portfolio already figured out for this asset class. Then if it was in tax-advantaged and it droppped in value, you would be buying more to get back to your desired AA. Can you psychologically do that? Can you give me an example where you have done something like that before? For example, did you buy shares in an emerging markets index fund at the end of June when those EM threads were all the rage on this forum? If not, why not?


Having learnt the basics of investing from this forum, this fund has no space in my retirement account AA. This is purely a speculative play and I want to see if this gets any far with some extra money. That money is just sitting in my savings earning nothing and wouldn't have gone into VTSMX or VGTSX for the long term. So there is absolutely no question of me rebalancing into this fund when it goes down further :). I'll just let it ride till I can sell it and book the profits/loss. If I was on this forum in June, I may or may not have bought into EM. I may or may not when it becomes a rage next time. If I do, I will do it knowing fully well I am speculating and not investing according to the principles professed on this forum.
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Re: Tax efficient placement of VGPMX

Postby pkcrafter » Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:41 pm
sibnoob wrote:
Having learnt the basics of investing from this forum, this fund has no space in my retirement account AA. This is purely a speculative play and I want to see if this gets any far with some extra money.


With all due respect, I wonder if you have really learnt the basics because I don't believe speculative investing is included. :happy

Paul
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Re: Tax efficient placement of VGPMX

Postby artbug » Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:26 am
It's weird. When I see people post portfolios with sector funds like energy and health care, I think, "Why would anyone do that?" But somehow sectors like REITs don't make me think that when perhaps they should. Concerning precious metals, I first read about them in William Bernstein's The Four Pillars of Investing. After he blew my mind with...well...everything he wrote, I had to take the idea of precious metals seriously. (It has been a while since I readThe Four Pillars, but I'm reading the book again.) Looking at a couple charts, what catches my eye is what appears to be varying degrees of negative, low and non-correlation over long and short periods.:

(11.5 years)
Image

(3 years)
Image

(3 months)
Image

I even think I see varying degrees of non-correlation when I compare it to REITs. Anyway, that's what my eyeball sees. Of course, my eyeball also spots protracted periods of going nowhere and loss.

I'll admit that the opportunist/market-timer is curious again now that I can see a heavy decline in VGPMX since 2011. I've never been able to get a sense of what Bogleheads think of them or if they're even recommended, let alone used by forum members, but I'd appreciate others' perspective.
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Re: Tax efficient placement of VGPMX

Postby slbnoob » Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:22 pm
pkcrafter wrote:sibnoob wrote:
Having learnt the basics of investing from this forum, this fund has no space in my retirement account AA. This is purely a speculative play and I want to see if this gets any far with some extra money.


With all due respect, I wonder if you have really learnt the basics because I don't believe speculative investing is included. :happy

Paul

With all due respect, I have at least learnt enough to keep speculation separate from investing and I have made this very clear in my post :) Speculation is not investing. It is just that.

And as the poster above this has noted, VGPMX has activated the opportunist/market-timer in me :twisted:
Posted on 8:22 AM | Categories: